# CMH



## nayab itrat (Oct 20, 2015)

I was wondering if CMH getting under NUMS a good thing? because NUMS is new and all. And the exams will be different. Can anyone give insight? Plus I am worried about their test. I heard cmh is still undecided about considering MCAT. And I am worried about their test I have no prep at all.


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## masterh (Sep 20, 2011)

nayab itrat said:


> I was wondering if CMH getting under NUMS a good thing? because NUMS is new and all. And the exams will be different. Can anyone give insight? Plus I am worried about their test. I heard cmh is still undecided about considering MCAT. And I am worried about their test I have no prep at all.


CMH would just become a generic name as Army plans to open CMH Medical Colleges in all the major cities, to be operational under NUMS. Four medical colleges are already under NUMS like CMH Multan, CMH Quetta, CMH Lahore and AMC, Rawalpindi and, there will be many more in the years to come.

So what will happen?

Acceptance rate will go UP.
Prestige will go DOWN.
Mismanagement will go UP.
Quality will go DOWN.

Who will benefit from this?
Institutes like AKU (100 MBBS Seats) and Shalamar (150 MBBS Seats) will see a huge surge in their prestige and merit, so will colleges such as Shifa, FUMC, FMH and Wah will hugely benefit from it too.

It's the same thing like when universities like COMSATS, PU, UET, FAST etc, started branching out to different cities all over the country, the value of their degree automatically went down, same will be the case with NUMS. It's simple, no elite institute ever branches out. There is no second LUMS, second GIKI, second NUST (yes, there is a branch of NUST in Karachi, but it is just for Marine programs which cannot be offered at the Main Campus), second IBA or second PIEAS.


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## nayab itrat (Oct 20, 2015)

masterh said:


> nayab itrat said:
> 
> 
> > I was wondering if CMH getting under NUMS a good thing? because NUMS is new and all. And the exams will be different. Can anyone give insight? Plus I am worried about their test. I heard cmh is still undecided about considering MCAT. And I am worried about their test I have no prep at all.
> ...


So what youre saying is I shouldnt apply to CMH and that it will suck now? :flushed:


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## masterh (Sep 20, 2011)

nayab itrat said:


> So what youre saying is I shouldnt apply to CMH and that it will suck now? :flushed:


Apply wherever you want to. I just sketched a picture from the future for you; doesn't look too bright for NUMS.


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## nayab itrat (Oct 20, 2015)

Are you sure about this? This means CMH doctors will have no importance and will have no opportunities. So if I get in I shouldn't go?


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## escalations (Apr 17, 2015)

I don't think prestige of AKU rests much on what CMH does . Perhaps competition between CMH, Shalamar and Shifa would get stiffer as some students from Southern Punjab who otherwise might have been coming to CMH Lahore, now might opt for CMH Multan.
The value of UET didn't go down when they opened campuses in Taxila however it did go down because of NUST and GIK. If CMH Lahore retains most of its faculty and funding, its prestige might not get much dented if the admittance aggregate goes 82% or 81.5% due to students opting for Multan. Shalamar and other colleges in Lahore can increase their prestige based on what they do themselves and many of them are trying hard and improving.
UHS results are a good gauge and also success in Post graduate programs and other international programs and that data I am not sure colleges keep track off.


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## Queenbee (Sep 4, 2015)

What was the closing merit of CMH last year anyway? Whats the expected merit this time?


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## Anonymous111 (Oct 12, 2015)

It was 85.4 approx. Chances are its gonna fall. What's ur merit?


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## Queenbee (Sep 4, 2015)

84.36 :s Their NUMS test certainly wont help :s


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## Anonymous111 (Oct 12, 2015)

Queenbee said:


> 84.36 :s Their NUMS test certainly wont help :s


applying on SAT basis? It's not that bad. The merit will probably fall down to 84.0 something I'm guessing


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## Queenbee (Sep 4, 2015)

I'm not applying on SAT basis :sweat:


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## masterh (Sep 20, 2011)

escalations said:


> I don't think prestige of AKU rests much on what CMH does . Perhaps competition between CMH, Shalamar and Shifa would get stiffer as some students from Southern Punjab who otherwise might have been coming to CMH Lahore, now might opt for CMH Multan.
> The value of UET didn't go down when they opened campuses in Taxila however it did go down because of NUST and GIK. If CMH Lahore retains most of its faculty and funding, its prestige might not get much dented if the admittance aggregate goes 82% or 81.5% due to students opting for Multan. Shalamar and other colleges in Lahore can increase their prestige based on what they do themselves and many of them are trying hard and improving.
> UHS results are a good gauge and also success in Post graduate programs and other international programs and that data I am not sure colleges keep track off.


Prestige of UET went down because they opened too many campuses without any balance of funding, research output went downhill, faculty wasn't there and their degrees became generic. There is a program in Army Public College, Rawalpindi where you can get a UET Degree. UET has a campus in Peshawar, Taxilla, Chakwal etc. The only reason why people still go to UET is because of its fee structure, there is no other attraction at all. 

As for CMH, the name itself will become generic. There is a reason why elite colleges never branch out, that reason is prestige. Although, Harvard University gets over $ 14 Billion (4 Times the budget of Pakistan) as their endowment fund per annum but, it never opens another branch, why? Because the day they will open another campus, the value, prestige and significance of their identity will diminish. Do you think, if AKU ever extends a branch to lets suppose Lahore, will AKU have the same prestige, it has today? The answer is NO. It is like, the more exclusive a BRAND is, the higher is its value.

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And, a university name is treated like a brand, these days.


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## escalations (Apr 17, 2015)

masterh said:


> Prestige of UET went down because they opened too many campuses without any balance of funding, research output went downhill, faculty wasn't there and their degrees became generic. There is a program in Army Public College, Rawalpindi where you can get a UET Degree. UET has a campus in Peshawar, Taxilla, Chakwal etc. The only reason why people still go to UET is because of its fee structure, there is no other attraction at all.
> 
> As for CMH, the name itself will become generic. There is a reason why elite colleges never branch out, that reason is prestige. Although, Harvard University gets over $ 14 Billion (4 Times the budget of Pakistan) as their endowment fund per annum but, it never opens another branch, why? Because the day they will open another campus, the value, prestige and significance of their identity will diminish. Do you think, if AKU ever extends a branch to lets suppose Lahore, will AKU have the same prestige, it has today? The answer is NO. It is like, the more exclusive a BRAND is, the higher is its value.
> 
> ...


 The University degree name is not everything, the campus is important and is core. The UET Chakwal or Taxila degree value is not the same as UET Lahore degree even though its same paper and stamp. The reason UET Lahore degree is not same today is because NUST came out as a better University, UET is still same but not the first choice of all A grade students.
The degree alone does not decide, its the campus that counts. If they are all the same then one would argue Allama Iqbal Medical College and RMC give the same degree (UHS), as DG Khan Medical college and Sahiwal Medical, so they have the same value. Unfortunately they don't. 
Not long ago Government College Lahore, FC College Lahore and Diyal Singh College Lahore were all giving Punjab University degree's. They didn't hold the same water also.
Since you give example of Harvard, please note Yale, Cornell, Carnegie Mellon, Georgetown and several other American Universities have campuses in Middle East. You tell me, has that diluted the value of Yale and Cornell? The degree from main campus always holds more water than others.
Similarly a degree from University of Texas "Austin" is not the same as University of Texas "Elpaso" or University of Texas "Arlington". I can give some examples of University of California campuses also. Even University of Toronto has 3 campuses and might open a 4th one.


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## DoctorA (Oct 16, 2015)

masterh said:


> Prestige of UET went down because they opened too many campuses without any balance of funding, research output went downhill, faculty wasn't there and their degrees became generic. There is a program in Army Public College, Rawalpindi where you can get a UET Degree. UET has a campus in Peshawar, Taxilla, Chakwal etc. The only reason why people still go to UET is because of its fee structure, there is no other attraction at all.
> 
> As for CMH, the name itself will become generic. There is a reason why elite colleges never branch out, that reason is prestige. Although, Harvard University gets over $ 14 Billion (4 Times the budget of Pakistan) as their endowment fund per annum but, it never opens another branch, why? Because the day they will open another campus, the value, prestige and significance of their identity will diminish. Do you think, if AKU ever extends a branch to lets suppose Lahore, will AKU have the same prestige, it has today? The answer is NO. It is like, the more exclusive a BRAND is, the higher is its value.
> 
> ...


Sometimes i wonder if you have something against CMH. Like you hold a grudge or just hate CMH for some reason. Did they reject or something?


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## masterh (Sep 20, 2011)

DoctorA said:


> Sometimes i wonder if you have something against CMH. Like you hold a grudge or just hate CMH for some reason. Did they reject or something?


I am just killing the hype. :roll:
I got admission in CMH Lahore in 2009, didn't go.

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escalations said:


> The University degree name is not everything, the campus is important and is core. The UET Chakwal or Taxila degree value is not the same as UET Lahore degree even though its same paper and stamp. The reason UET Lahore degree is not same today is because NUST came out as a better University, UET is still same but not the first choice of all A grade students.
> The degree alone does not decide, its the campus that counts. If they are all the same then one would argue Allama Iqbal Medical College and RMC give the same degree (UHS), as DG Khan Medical college and Sahiwal Medical, so they have the same value. Unfortunately they don't.
> Not long ago Government College Lahore, FC College Lahore and Diyal Singh College Lahore were all giving Punjab University degree's. They didn't hold the same water also.
> Since you give example of Harvard, please note Yale, Cornell, Carnegie Mellon, Georgetown and several other American Universities have campuses in Middle East. You tell me, has that diluted the value of Yale and Cornell? The degree from main campus always holds more water than others.
> Similarly a degree from University of Texas "Austin" is not the same as University of Texas "Elpaso" or University of Texas "Arlington". I can give some examples of University of California campuses also. Even University of Toronto has 3 campuses and might open a 4th one.


Yale-NUS is not a campus of Yale.  Its just a collaboration. And, its in Singapore not Middle East.

Another thing is Private vs Public. While, no matter what if you open a goverment medical college in the toilet, it will automatically have prestige, really. In private, where you pay so much money, you care a lot about the brand value. 

And, UHS is not an administrative university, its just an examination body which imparts degrees. The colleges that operate under UHS are just making their undergraduate students take UHS examinations. UHS does not govern, direct or operate any of these colleges directly. NUMS will be an administrative university just like PU, COMSATS, FAST etc. Colleges affiliated with UHS have independent administration, regulations and infrastructures. 

As for the state schools comparison, UT Austin or UT Dallas isn't even in the top tier in USA. There is a reason why Private Elite are the top tier and the state schools are not, just because of this generic system. Everyone if given a choice would always choose to go to any Ivy or Stanford, Duke, MIT, Northwestern (aka Exclusive Schools) over a state school anyday. 

Its all about branding, the more exclusive a brand is, the higher is its value. Simple!

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Again, does any UC or U of T has the same prestige as an Ivy? Despite being good and selective.

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I was talking exclusively about the Elite bracket of Universities.


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## nidarasul (Sep 23, 2013)

escalations said:


> The University degree name is not everything, the campus is important and is core. The UET Chakwal or Taxila degree value is not the same as UET Lahore degree even though its same paper and stamp. The reason UET Lahore degree is not same today is because NUST came out as a better University, UET is still same but not the first choice of all A grade students.
> The degree alone does not decide, its the campus that counts. If they are all the same then one would argue Allama Iqbal Medical College and RMC give the same degree (UHS), as DG Khan Medical college and Sahiwal Medical, so they have the same value. Unfortunately they don't.
> Not long ago Government College Lahore, FC College Lahore and Diyal Singh College Lahore were all giving Punjab University degree's. They didn't hold the same water also.
> Since you give example of Harvard, please note Yale, Cornell, Carnegie Mellon, Georgetown and several other American Universities have campuses in Middle East. You tell me, has that diluted the value of Yale and Cornell? The degree from main campus always holds more water than others.
> Similarly a degree from University of Texas "Austin" is not the same as University of Texas "Elpaso" or University of Texas "Arlington". I can give some examples of University of California campuses also. Even University of Toronto has 3 campuses and might open a 4th one.


This was incredibly well put! NYU is pretty much top tier and it has centers in Abu Dhabi and Shanghai global academic centers in 11 other places. But the prestige of the New York campus is in no way diminished. The Shanghai and Abu Dhabi campuses do have the same NYU degree but are much less impressive. 
UHS does govern public institutions to an extent. It forms the syllabi, the teaching system, controls admissions, graduations, fee structure and regulates a lot of academic aspects. Public institutions are not only prestigious due to their fee structure. The main reason is that the cream of pre-med students make it there with immense competition. That is what makes them prestigious. Opening a college in the toilet wouldn't exactly attract students. People think a lot before taking admissions. Public colleges are mostly trusted because of their hospital affiliations. All public colleges have affiliations with gov hospitals, which make them more attractive compared to privates. 
Doesn't matter how amazing the private college is, be it Shifa, FUMC, CMH, Shalamar, FMH whatever. They cannot offer better clinical experience than gov hospitals. Paying patients in private hospitals are very picky in terms of the doctors who manage them.


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## escalations (Apr 17, 2015)

masterh said:


> I am just killing the hype. :roll:
> I got admission in CMH Lahore in 2009, didn't go.
> 
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> ...


Yes Yale is not in ME but in Asia but there are Cornell, Georgetown, Carnegie Mellon, NYU and many other campuses in ME or Asia and their degree's don't hold the same prestige as the main campus. 
Also many programs at UC Berkeley are ranked higher then Ivy, even Univ of Washington Medical School is ranked higher then many Ivy Med schools. So many Ivy schools have campuses across globe and many State Schools such as UC Berkeley, UCLA, U of Michigan, UT Austin, UNC have top notch programs and research even better then Ivy's. The reason you see less admission stats for them is because the State Universities operate a different financial aid and admission structure which favors instate while Private Elite Universities have what is termed as Need based aid and Need blind admissions for all US students, some even for Int. I think only a couple of state schools that do that for everyone.

Its ok to kill the hype of CMH but at the same time, don't you think its unfair to scare off prospective students based off a scenario which no one can predict. IBA didn't open a second campus and it is not the 1st choice of all Business students anymore, what happened? LUMS happened. 

I think its not rocket science why it happens. The Privates generally do not branch out, the State or Public institutions do. CMH though private but being semi-sarkar type like Bahria will branch out. Parents even drive their kids 20 extra mile for a better Beaconhouse or LGS een though one is next to their home so we are talking higher education which is even more selective.


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