# HEC, PTAP, Foreigers applying to Pakistan. READ THIS FIRST



## crazycakes (Feb 13, 2021)

Hi all,

Just wanted to give you guys a heads up if you are from USA and applying to medical schools in pakistan this year. If so, I just wanted to let you know that after 2024, you will not be allowed to apply for residency programs in the USA with Pakistani medical schools degree (even if its from Aga Khan LOL). I am not making any of this up this is according to the ECFMG 2024 (previously 2023) announcement which I have referenced below. ECFMG is a certification international medical school graduates require before they apply to residency, or even take the one of the USMLE's. They require the country to have all of its medical schools accredited and Pakistan is not on the list nor have they applied for accreditation . It takes 6 years to become accredited so I don't want you guys to be stuck in a limbo half way ( or completely done) through your MBBS degree. I have referenced below the links as to what i am talking about. 

*ECFMG 2023 policy - World Federation for Medical Education*
ECFMG 2023 policy states that starting 2023, physicians applying for USMLE will have to graduate from medical school that has been appropriately accredited.







wfme.org
ECFMG 2023 Accreditation Requirement – Moved to 2024 - The World Federation for Medical Education

you can also find this on the ECFMG website.









Recognized Accreditation Policy


Accreditation




www.ecfmg.org


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## h.haris (Jun 30, 2019)

Wait wait wait wait. 

If I'm reading this correctly the link you sent says 
"The ECFMG® has announced that, effective in 2024 (previously 2023), physicians applying for ECFMG Certification will be required to graduate from a medical school that has been appropriately accredited. To satisfy this requirement, the physician’s medical school must be accredited by an accrediting agency recognized by WFME."

That means that the school you choose has to be accredited by the WFME, so you should make sure your school is on the WFME directory. 
Here's the link to that:


World Directory of Medical Schools Search



When you check the directory though, most Pakistani medical schools are accredited, so there shouldn't be any issue applying.


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## h.haris (Jun 30, 2019)

See?


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## crazycakes (Feb 13, 2021)

h.haris said:


> See?


Hi, 

What you have is actually general accreditation so you can apply to residency anywhere else in the world except places that require ECFMG. I know Canada doesn't require ECFMG as they have a different process but also Canada barely has enough residency positions for their own Canadian graduates and the IMG's they take are also Canadian born citizens that left Canada and came back for res( no PR/Visa holders etc) they are very selective as the healthcare and everything related to become a licensed doctor is controlled by the government. ( FUN FACT: in all of Canadas medical schools they accept a total of ZERO international students). 
I contacted WFME about this problem as well and they said that in order to be accredited the way ECFMG wants the Pakistan Medical Commission (PMC) needs to be accredited as a whole and the (country will appear as dark blue on their map) not individual schools. Im not sure about that PMC's plans are as they are new but I emailed them about this and they never responded. WFME told me that i could go to their office and ask them to process an application (which takes 6 years idek whats the point now) but that would be jokes on me cause PMC is absolute trash. India is also not accredited like Pakistan but India's Prime Minister Modi said in a statement that he will not be letting his country apply for that accreditation as the top doctors end up leaving India and practicing in USA. Individual schools are accredited though like screenshot you sent me. 

Here is a list of countries that are accredited: 

Agencies with Recognition Status - World Federation for Medical Education 

Hope that cleared a thing or two up .


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## crazycakes (Feb 13, 2021)

crazycakes said:


> Hi,
> 
> What you have is actually general accreditation so you can apply to residency anywhere else in the world except places that require ECFMG. I know Canada doesn't require ECFMG as they have a different process but also Canada barely has enough residency positions for their own Canadian graduates and the IMG's they take are also Canadian born citizens that left Canada and came back for res( no PR/Visa holders etc) they are very selective as the healthcare and everything related to become a licensed doctor is controlled by the government. ( FUN FACT: in all of Canadas medical schools they accept a total of ZERO international students).
> I contacted WFME about this problem as well and they said that in order to be accredited the way ECFMG wants the Pakistan Medical Commission (PMC) needs to be accredited as a whole and the (country will appear as dark blue on their map) not individual schools. Im not sure about that PMC's plans are as they are new but I emailed them about this and they never responded. WFME told me that i could go to their office and ask them to process an application (which takes 6 years idek whats the point now) but that would be jokes on me cause PMC is absolute trash. India is also not accredited like Pakistan but India's Prime Minister Modi said in a statement that he will not be letting his country apply for that accreditation as the top doctors end up leaving India and practicing in USA. Individual schools are accredited though like screenshot you sent me.
> ...


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## crazycakes (Feb 13, 2021)

h.haris said:


> Wait wait wait wait.
> 
> If I'm reading this correctly the link you sent says
> "The ECFMG® has announced that, effective in 2024 (previously 2023), physicians applying for ECFMG Certification will be required to graduate from a medical school that has been appropriately accredited. To satisfy this requirement, the physician’s medical school must be accredited by an accrediting agency recognized by WFME."
> ...


"To satisfy this requirement, the physician’s medical school must be accredited by an accrediting agency recognized by WFME." 

Pakistans "accrediting agency" is PMC which would have to be recognized by WFME. Not individual schools.


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## Salmansajid (Sep 22, 2020)

Are you also studying in Pakistan?


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## Salmansajid (Sep 22, 2020)

I think in the near future Pakistan will apply as well 
dont worry


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## crazycakes (Feb 13, 2021)

Salmansajid said:


> I think in the near future Pakistan will apply as well
> dont worry


I was planning on this year but I just enrolled myself into a Canadian uni for undergrad and then I will be going to a Caribbean university (St.George / Ross/ Saba which are also very good medical schools) after two years as the deadline for 2024 is super close.


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## crazycakes (Feb 13, 2021)

crazycakes said:


> I was planning on this year but I just enrolled myself into a Canadian uni for undergrad and then I will be going to a Caribbean university (St.George / Ross/ Saba which are also very good medical schools) after two years as the deadline for 2024 is super close.
> 
> Its not that I don't think Pakistan will apply in the near future but if you explore the ECFMG website it takes 6 years to get the accreditation as WFME literally has to go to the country and inspect everything as well.


I have been on the lookout for this accreditation thing since march 2020 and Pakistan has not made a single move in the time being. If they ever do end up getting accredited I can alway just leave undergrad sciences after two years and enroll into MBBS in Pakistan instead of the Caribbean.


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## Salmansajid (Sep 22, 2020)

USMLE has 2 exams 
step 1 and step 2 
students usually give exam in third year and for someone like me who just got enrolled, third year will be around 2023-2024 so I would within the deadline for ECFMG accreditation so I can give step 1 
what will happen to other students like me who gave step 1 but are not accredited for step 2?


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## crazycakes (Feb 13, 2021)

Salmansajid said:


> USMLE has 2 exams
> step 1 and step 2
> students usually give exam in third year and for someone like me who just got enrolled, third year will be around 2023-2024 so I would within the deadline for ECFMG accreditation so I can give step 1
> what will happen to other students like me who gave step 1 but are not accredited for step 2?


USMLE actually has three steps. 
you don't need ECFMG to write step 1. Im pretty sure anyone can write step 1 around the world you don't even need to come to the USA. you are correct it would be done around 2nd or 3rd year. 
*Step 2* : this is done in two parts and is done after you graduate you medical school, i'm not sure if it requires ECFMG or not please let me know if it does. You have to physically come to USA to write the step 2 though. 
*Step 3*: this is written after your internship year to become a resident and is the step that requires ECFMG. 

However, ECFMG certification is required to apply to internship/residency programs on AAMC anyway not just for USMLE which would be around 2026 for people enrolled in a 6 year program like us. 
This is the information that I have on my hands from my peers that did res in USA. Correct me if i'm wrong though as Im still in first year Health Sci and not a USA resident. 

Again, I am so sorry to be the bad news bearer it just occurred to me that Pakistan is making absolutely no efforts in letting Foreign students know about this policy. I was so ready to come to Pakistan this year and got perfect on my math and bio sat with a 780 in Chem in December 2019. However, finding coming across this WFME link I thought the Caribbean would be a better option for me as they do rotations in USA and also with USMLE part one going pass/fail soon its a better option as they choose American graduates as their top priority and then Caribbean graduates. 






United States Medical Licensing Examination | USMLE Bulletin | Eligibility


The United States Medical Licensing Examination (USMLE) assesses a physician's ability to apply knowledge, concepts, and principles, and to demonstrate fundamental patient-centered skills, that are important in health and disease.



www.usmle.org


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## wadom (Aug 29, 2019)

Yeah I heard about this issue as well. ECFMG actually made this announcement a while back like a couple years ago but when they did PMDC was the accrediting agency for Pakistan. PMDC actually put in an application in 2017 which was being processed however when PMC came into being in late 2019 WFME asked them if they would like to continue and PMC said "they were not interested and would rather keep their doctors serving Pakistan not USA". This is what WFME told me when I asked them why our application had been cancelled as PMC never bothered telling me anything and acted completely clueless. 









Pakistani docs may face ineligibility for US exams after 2023


LAHORE - Medical graduates from Pakistan will not be eligible for appearing in examination for registration as practitioner or doing post-graduation from any




nation.com.pk


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## h.haris (Jun 30, 2019)

crazycakes said:


> USMLE actually has three steps.
> you don't need ECFMG to write step 1. Im pretty sure anyone can write step 1 around the world you don't even need to come to the USA. you are correct it would be done around 2nd or 3rd year.
> *Step 2* : this is done in two parts and is done after you graduate you medical school, i'm not sure if it requires ECFMG or not please let me know if it does. You have to physically come to USA to write the step 2 though.
> *Step 3*: this is written after your internship year to become a resident and is the step that requires ECFMG.
> ...


Don't be sorry. Thanks so so so much for informing us. I, personally, can't thank you enough.
Good luck with all of your endeavors.


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## crazycakes (Feb 13, 2021)

h.haris said:


> Don't be sorry. Thanks so so so much for informing us. I, personally, can't thank you enough.
> Good luck with all of your endeavors.


You are very welcome. The worst thing that could happen to me personally especially if I were American is going to the motherland for a degree and then coming back only to find out I'm ineligible for residency programs. Pakistani medical training (i.e specializing there) is not recognized in USA either so I would literally have no idea what to do afterwards except to kill myself. 
were you going this year to Pakistan or in the future?


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## crazycakes (Feb 13, 2021)

crazycakes said:


> USMLE actually has three steps.
> you don't need ECFMG to write step 1. Im pretty sure anyone can write step 1 around the world you don't even need to come to the USA. you are correct it would be done around 2nd or 3rd year.
> *Step 2* : this is done in two parts and is done after you graduate you medical school, i'm not sure if it requires ECFMG or not please let me know if it does. You have to physically come to USA to write the step 2 though.
> *Step 3*: this is written after your internship year to become a resident and is the step that requires ECFMG.
> ...


sorry I just noticed i misinformed you about Step 2. Step 2 is in two parts (CS= clinical skills and CK = clinical knowledge) so Clinical Knowledge can be written outside the US (ex, Pakistan) and Clinical Skills which is a practical exam has to be written inside the US in one of five test centers. One you pass both steps, USMLE step 1 and USMLE step 2 CK/CS, you are eligible to apply for ECFMG certification on the ECFMG website. An ECFMG certification is one of the eligibility requirements for Foreign medical graduates and international medical graduates in order to apply to residency programs and internships (an intern year is the first year of residency) on the AAMC website as they handle all residency applications. Without it your application to apply for residency programs will not be considered. Furthermore, ECFMG is required at the end of you intern year as well in order to write the USMLE step 3 allowing you to continue your residency program and making the move from an intern to a 2nd year resident.

Here is a PDF document I came across that is worth checking out.


https://www.ecfmg.org/forms/certfact.pdf



It's very important to keep up with all this information of what will be required of you upon coming back no matter what country you are in. Especially if you're going to school abroad as you never know what will happen and going to a country like Pakistan means you need to STAY ON TOP EVERYTHING as Pakistan only cares to pull money out of foreign students.

If you have any other questions regarding this matter let me know and I will try to help you out if i know anything.


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## Sajjad420 (Nov 7, 2020)

crazycakes said:


> sorry I just noticed i misinformed you about Step 2. Step 2 is in two parts (CS= clinical skills and CK = clinical knowledge) so Clinical Knowledge can be written outside the US (ex, Pakistan) and Clinical Skills which is a practical exam has to be written inside the US in one of five test centers. One you pass both steps, USMLE step 1 and USMLE step 2 CK/CS, you are eligible to apply for ECFMG certification on the ECFMG website. An ECFMG certification is one of the eligibility requirements for Foreign medical graduates and international medical graduates in order to apply to residency programs and internships (an intern year is the first year of residency) on the AAMC website as they handle all residency applications. Without it your application to apply for residency programs will not be considered. Furthermore, ECFMG is required at the end of you intern year as well in order to write the USMLE step 3 allowing you to continue your residency program and making the move from an intern to a 2nd year resident.
> 
> Here is a PDF document I came across that is worth checking out.
> 
> ...


Thank you for just an eye opening information. I'm UK resident. just out of curiosity if I gradate from Pakistan medical college would i be able to practice medicine in the UK. I know you wouldn't know much but everything is worth a try😄. PMC has ruined everything. I wonder why they abolished PMDC.


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## mohsinrd18 (Nov 14, 2020)

crazycakes said:


> Hi,
> 
> What you have is actually general accreditation so you can apply to residency anywhere else in the world except places that require ECFMG. I know Canada doesn't require ECFMG as they have a different process but also Canada barely has enough residency positions for their own Canadian graduates and the IMG's they take are also Canadian born citizens that left Canada and came back for res( no PR/Visa holders etc) they are very selective as the healthcare and everything related to become a licensed doctor is controlled by the government. ( FUN FACT: in all of Canadas medical schools they accept a total of ZERO international students).
> I contacted WFME about this problem as well and they said that in order to be accredited the way ECFMG wants the Pakistan Medical Commission (PMC) needs to be accredited as a whole and the (country will appear as dark blue on their map) not individual schools. Im not sure about that PMC's plans are as they are new but I emailed them about this and they never responded. WFME told me that i could go to their office and ask them to process an application (which takes 6 years idek whats the point now) but that would be jokes on me cause PMC is absolute trash. India is also not accredited like Pakistan but India's Prime Minister Modi said in a statement that he will not be letting his country apply for that accreditation as the top doctors end up leaving India and practicing in USA. Individual schools are accredited though like screenshot you sent me.
> ...


Hey, thanks for the information, but I find it a bit misleading. It takes around 12-18 months to achieve WFME Recognition including the application process. As of yet, PMC has not achieved recognition status or applied for one, but they are figuring it out-- I remember somebody emailed the president of PMC and they replied that we are working on it. It probably is a finance problem since recognition costs US$ 60,000. 





FAQs - The World Federation for Medical Education


FAQs about accreditation, WFME Recognition of Accreditation Programme and the WFME Global Standards for Quality Improvement




wfme.org


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## crazycakes (Feb 13, 2021)

mohsinrd18 said:


> Hey, thanks for the information, but I find it a bit misleading. It takes around 12-18 months to achieve WFME Recognition including the application process. As of yet, PMC has not achieved recognition status or applied for one, but they are figuring it out-- I remember somebody emailed the president of PMC and they replied that we are working on it. It probably is a finance problem since recognition costs US$ 60,000.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


thanks for correcting me. I only said 6 years cause that what the WFME page indicated and is also what they confirmed with me over the phone. But that was back in march maybe it's been changed now.


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## crazycakes (Feb 13, 2021)

Sajjad420 said:


> Thank you for just an eye opening information. I'm UK resident. just out of curiosity if I gradate from Pakistan medical college would i be able to practice medicine in the UK. I know you wouldn't know much but everything is worth a try😄. PMC has ruined everything. I wonder why they abolished PMDC.


Hi Sajjad, 

Sorry the only information I have from doing res in UK and an International medical graduate is that you write Plab 1 and Plab 2 or something like that and their residency programs differ quite a bit as well compared to Canada and US. I only have info on Canada and USA at the moment as I myself am a Canadian. Ill try researching and asking around the next couple days and if i find some valuble information i'll post it here on the thread.


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## Sajjad420 (Nov 7, 2020)

crazycakes said:


> Hi Sajjad,
> 
> Sorry the only information I have from doing res in UK and an International medical graduate is that you write Plab 1 and Plab 2 or something like that and their residency programs differ quite a bit as well compared to Canada and US. I only have info on Canada and USA at the moment as I myself am a Canadian. Ill try researching and asking around the next couple days and if i find some valuble information i'll post it here on the thread.


Not to worry. I would be kind of you if you please do ask around. I'll do some research as well. Thanks


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## crazycakes (Feb 13, 2021)

Sajjad420 said:


> Not to worry. I would be kind of you if you please do ask around. I'll do some research as well. Thanks


 No worries, 

If you learn anything please post it on this thread. I will do the same. Maybe it will benefit me in the future as well!


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## crazycakes (Feb 13, 2021)

mohsinrd18 said:


> Hey, thanks for the information, but I find it a bit misleading. It takes around 12-18 months to achieve WFME Recognition including the application process. As of yet, PMC has not achieved recognition status or applied for one, but they are figuring it out-- I remember somebody emailed the president of PMC and they replied that we are working on it. It probably is a finance problem since recognition costs US$ 60,000.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


$60,000 USD isn't that much especially to gain accreditation for a whole country and all of its medical schools. It literally adds up to be one foreign students tuition in Pakistan over the 5 years (more if the student decides to go private). So are you sure money is the problem for them? Is PMC that broke?


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## Procrastinator (Nov 21, 2021)

crazycakes said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Just wanted to give you guys a heads up if you are from USA and applying to medical schools in pakistan this year. If so, I just wanted to let you know that after 2024, you will not be allowed to apply for residency programs in the USA with Pakistani medical schools degree (even if its from Aga Khan LOL). I am not making any of this up this is according to the ECFMG 2024 (previously 2023) announcement which I have referenced below. ECFMG is a certification international medical school graduates require before they apply to residency, or even take the one of the USMLE's. They require the country to have all of its medical schools accredited and Pakistan is not on the list nor have they applied for accreditation . It takes 6 years to become accredited so I don't want you guys to be stuck in a limbo half way ( or completely done) through your MBBS degree. I have referenced below the links as to what i am talking about.
> 
> ...


Girl you opened my eyes! Thanks dor sharing this information. So when I was searching the wfms,s website, I wasn't able to find any specific list of accreditation there. Do you have any link for that? Is pakistan just not mentioned there? I wonder what would those students do in future who are investing their time to eventually find out this.


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