# Pakistani Citizen in USA wants to pursue medical studies in Pakistan



## engrsardar (Oct 9, 2009)

I am 10th grade (sophomore) in California-US, and am Pakistani and Canadian Citizen. I intend to pursue Medical in Pakistan. I am searching different websites to know what exactly is required for admission in medical college in Pakistan. Secondly After my graduation as MBBS, I intend to do USMLE, and do residency in US or Canada. My house is in Rawalpindi.Any information on path to medical college in Pakistan, and later residency in USA/Canada. I would highly appreciate any tips. Thanks


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## Sam212 (Apr 3, 2006)

engrsardar said:


> I am 10th grade (sophomore) in California-US, and am Pakistani and Canadian Citizen. I intend to pursue Medical in Pakistan. I am searching different websites to know what exactly is required for admission in medical college in Pakistan. Secondly After my graduation as MBBS, I intend to do USMLE, and do residency in US or Canada. My house is in Rawalpindi.Any information on path to medical college in Pakistan, and later residency in USA/Canada. I would highly appreciate any tips. Thanks


Pursuing medical education in the US is your best bet due to increased competition in obtaining residencies. Go to college and get a bachelor's degree and apply to med schools in the US or Canada.


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## engrsardar (Oct 9, 2009)

*admission in medical colleges in Pakistan*



Sam212 said:


> Pursuing medical education in the US is your best bet due to increased competition in obtaining residencies. Go to college and get a bachelor's degree and apply to med schools in the US or Canada.


Hello Sam212, thanks for your such a prompt response. But I am wondering, that if I get my MBBS from Pakistan, I will save at least a year and a half, and 100,000 dollars. I thought that by doing USMLE, I should have not a big problem with residency here in US or Canada


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## MastahRiz (Jan 26, 2006)

If and only if money is an issue, then I would suggest considering the foreign route. Otherwise, I agree with Sam212-- go to med school in the US.


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## engrsardar (Oct 9, 2009)

Thanks Seniors. I appreciate your time. Though I am more confused than before, cus I thought every one would be in support of the idea of going to Pakistan for MBBS and then come back to US for residency, but obviously you guys know more than I know, so I have to check with my dad for the new situation. I wish some body in this forum come forward with some strong points in the favour of my idea.


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## MastahRiz (Jan 26, 2006)

The advantages are relative and not without a price of their own.

The foreign route is primarily seen as nothing more than a shortcut for people who couldn't get into US schools. People who are more knowledgeable may also consider the fact that money was an issue, however that's never their first impression. All residency program directors assume your medical training is inadequate until proven otherwise. Since the burden of proof lies upon you, it'll be your job to perform *extremely *well on the USMLE after graduating. This means you need to perform much better than most US medical students.

From a student's point of view, the only advantages of the foreign route are that it saves time and money.

From the program director's point of view, you're younger, have an inadequate medical background, have no bachelor's degree (again something you don't want to brag about), and are possibly bringing visa issues to the table. I realize the last one doesn't apply to you, but generally speaking, it's a common problem for foreign grads.

The fact that foreign medical schools take students at the age of 18 years right after high school is pretty ridiculous.


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## thecalccobra (Jul 3, 2007)

Going to Pakistan for med school wouldn't be a bad idea. As a U.S. citizen, and depending on your stats, you shouldn't have a problem matching into psychiatry, IM, family med if you do well. It's all up to you and how much you put into it. However, if you're shooting for radiology or the other very competitive specialties, then stay in the U.S.



MastahRiz said:


> The advantages are relative and not without a price of their own.
> 
> The foreign route is primarily seen as nothing more than a shortcut for people who couldn't get into US schools. People who are more knowledgeable may also consider the fact that money was an issue, however that's never their first impression. All residency program directors assume your medical training is inadequate until proven otherwise. Since the burden of proof lies upon you, it'll be your job to perform *extremely *well on the USMLE after graduating. This means you need to perform much better than most US medical students.
> 
> ...



What do you mean by extremely well, 99's?


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## MastahRiz (Jan 26, 2006)

thecalccobra said:


> Going to Pakistan for med school wouldn't be a bad idea. As a U.S. citizen, and depending on your stats, you shouldn't have a problem matching into psychiatry, IM, family med if you do well. It's all up to you and how much you put into it. However, if you're shooting for radiology or the other very competitive specialties, then stay in the U.S.


You have a valid point which I agree with, to an extent. Internal med is still more selective than say, family practice. Also, being a US grad you may match into several IM programs whereas being a foreign grad you may find yourself limited to just 1 program in the middle of nowhere, or no match at all.




thecalccobra said:


> What do you mean by extremely well, 99's?


Yes, basically. However keep in mind that the "99" score is completely meaningless now and contrary to popular belief it's not a '99 percentile' score. The three digit score, or your raw score out of 350, is what is really important. An average score for a US medical student would be something like 210 - 225. For an IMG hoping to match a residency of their choice, I'd say you should aim for something like a 240 and also bulk up your CV in the meantime.


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## engrsardar (Oct 9, 2009)

I disagre with Rizwan when he says that, "The foreign route is primarily seen as nothing more than a shortcut for people who couldn't get into US schools". I think getting admission in medicla college in Pakistan is equally difficult. I think I might get admission in any med college here in California, but I am not sure about well know college in Pakistan, as their admission criteria is alot tough.


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## MastahRiz (Jan 26, 2006)

If you don't believe me, call a few residency program directors and ask. I'm just telling you what they told me. Some of them were also from CA med schools. You can also ask this same question over at studentdoctor.net. You'll get replies from students, doctors, residents, and even program directors.

You're a sophomore in high school, it's impossible to say stuff like you know you can get into any California med school, considering that's at least six years away. If you really believe that's the case, then there's really nothing more to discuss. California has some of the best medical schools in the US, and it would do great things for you to graduate from one of them.

Here's something else to consider:

Criteria for Pakistan: High school GPA + entrance test covering high school level biology, physics, math, and English. For some schools, SAT scores (again, a high school based exam, not that difficult).

Which part of the above are you referring to when you say that admission criteria is tough?

Criteria for US: A 4 year undergraduate degree with a *high GPA* from a prestigious or well established university. A high MCAT score (not a high school exam, much more difficult than SATs or the Pakistani medical school entrance exam), extracurricular activities/volunteer work.

It's impossible, if not preposterous to try and compare the difficulty of high school performance to that of an undergraduate 4 year university program.

Anyone can get a high school diploma.


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## Sam212 (Apr 3, 2006)

engrsardar said:


> I disagre with Rizwan when he says that, "The foreign route is primarily seen as nothing more than a shortcut for people who couldn't get into US schools". I think getting admission in medicla college in Pakistan is equally difficult. I think I might get admission in any med college here in California, but I am not sure about well know college in Pakistan, as their admission criteria is alot tough.


Is this some kind of a joke? if you think that getting into med school in California is easier than Pakistan than you have a lot to learn, and you do, afterall, you are just a sophmore in high school. California medical schools have the highest admissions statistics in all the US. Average matriculant in California schools has an MCAT score of 33. California has some of the top medical schools in the nation and some of the best applicants as well. That's not to say that you can't get in, it will just take a lot of work. Please review my posts that I have made on this forum to see why going to Pakistan for medical education is a bad idea.

Here's my post answering the same question: http://medstudentz.com/pakistan-med...eciding-if-going-aku-good-idea.html#post15961



thecalccobra said:


> Going to Pakistan for med school wouldn't be a bad idea. As a U.S. citizen, and depending on your stats, you shouldn't have a problem matching into psychiatry, IM, family med if you do well. It's all up to you and how much you put into it. However, if you're shooting for radiology or the other very competitive specialties, then stay in the U.S.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Dude, I know plenty of people, PLENTY, who scored above 215 and didn't match for consecutive year in anything. Guess what they had common, they all went to foreign schools. These were very competent people and it was sad to see them struggle. Optimism is great, but you should be realistic some times, too. And I am not even taking anything else into account (ECFMG certification, lack of US clinicals, and whatnot).


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## engrsardar (Oct 9, 2009)

Thanks Rizwan for your valuable information. I have read on some other forum, where one guy says that in Pakistan, when they change your GPA, it comes out to be very low. He shared his own experience of 4.3 GPA with other accomplishments, but could not make it or something like that. I am in 10th grade right now, but I am firm to get into medical college and compete with my cousins (4 of them are doctors and one in medical college), and I just want to make the best possible decision as to what should I do 2 years from now. People like you have always been great guidance for youngsters like me. Thank you


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## Sam212 (Apr 3, 2006)

engrsardar said:


> Thanks Rizwan for your valuable information. I have read on some other forum, where one guy says that in Pakistan, when they change your GPA, it comes out to be very low. He shared his own experience of 4.3 GPA with other accomplishments, but could not make it or something like that. I am in 10th grade right now, but I am firm to get into medical college and compete with my cousins (4 of them are doctors and one in medical college), and I just want to make the best possible decision as to what should I do 2 years from now. People like you have always been great guidance for youngsters like me. Thank you


 
If you are commited and firm (as you say) best decision for you would be to go to 4-year college, get a bachelor's degree, and apply for a spot here in the US, period. That will require persistance and hardwork, but if you are as firm and commited as you say, shouldn't be a problem for you. California has some of the best medical schools, and the best decision for you would be to strive for getting into one.


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## saadfaiz92 (Oct 9, 2009)

I'm also a US citizen about to start my first year of medical college in Pakistan. Are you guys saying it is almost impossible to secure residencies if you get around 85% in USMLE? Because there are ALOT of success stories of IMG's over the internet.I was planning on doing medical college from here then going to America for residency but after reading this reply I feel doubtful over what to do.


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## MastahRiz (Jan 26, 2006)

There is no percentage score on the USMLE.

An "85" will most likely land you a residency in family practice in some random hospital in the mid west, or maybe Alaska.


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## saadfaiz92 (Oct 9, 2009)

MastahRiz said:


> There is no percentage score on the USMLE.
> 
> An "85" will most likely land you a residency in family practice in some random hospital in the mid west, or maybe Alaska.


Well thats encouraging.


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## studentofmed (Sep 12, 2008)

MastahRiz said:


> There is no percentage score on the USMLE.
> 
> An "85" will most likely land you a residency in family practice in some random hospital in the mid west, or maybe Alaska.


Hold it...what's wrong with the Midwest? #frown Missouri's where it's at! (Oklahoma rules equally but technically speaking it's in the South) St. Louis has one of the nation's top 10 hospitals, Barnes-Jewish, for your kind information, and who wouldn't want to work there? If an 85% is all I need to land myself there then that is indeed a comforting thought. (I know BJH would require a much higher score but I'm talking about the midwest in general)


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## Sam212 (Apr 3, 2006)

studentofmed said:


> Hold it...what's wrong with the Midwest? #frown Missouri's where it's at! (Oklahoma rules equally but technically speaking it's in the South) St. Louis has one of the nation's top 10 hospitals, Barnes-Jewish, for your kind information, and who wouldn't want to work there? If an 85% is all I need to land myself there then that is indeed a comforting thought. (I know BJH would require a much higher score but I'm talking about the midwest in general)


He's probably talking about FP residency in Decatur, Illinois or Lafayette, Indiana.


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## ahmed nadeem (Aug 19, 2009)

how do they grade the usmle exams?how much would you have to get for a residency in surgery?


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## thecalccobra (Jul 3, 2007)

Sam212 said:


> Is this some kind of a joke? if you think that getting into med school in California is easier than Pakistan than you have a lot to learn, and you do, afterall, you are just a sophmore in high school. California medical schools have the highest admissions statistics in all the US. Average matriculant in California schools has an MCAT score of 33. California has some of the top medical schools in the nation and some of the best applicants as well. That's not to say that you can't get in, it will just take a lot of work. Please review my posts that I have made on this forum to see why going to Pakistan for medical education is a bad idea.
> 
> Here's my post answering the same question: http://medstudentz.com/pakistan-med...eciding-if-going-aku-good-idea.html#post15961
> 
> ...



I bet most of those people whom you seem to know had visa issues or some other issue you're not aware of. Heck, they could be going for neurosurgery or some other very competitive specialty. If you're a USIMG with a 215+ no reason why you shouldn't match somewhere.


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## MastahRiz (Jan 26, 2006)

It may have worked for some people, but I wouldn't risk it. Even a US IMG should be aiming much higher than the average US medical student's USMLE step 1 score.

Matching just anywhere isn't always preferable, and getting a high score can really make a world of difference. The step 1 score is by far the single most important factor when it comes to being accepted for a residency.

If a US IMG applicant is perfectly fine with *any *residency, *anywhere*, then yes, it's not necessarily extremely difficult for that to happen. As everyone probably already knows, certain specialties will of course demand more.

General Surgery for a non-US IMG without visa issues: I'd say 235+ but that's just a ballpark.


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## Sam212 (Apr 3, 2006)

thecalccobra said:


> I bet most of those people whom you seem to know had visa issues or some other issue you're not aware of. Heck, they could be going for neurosurgery or some other very competitive specialty. If you're a USIMG with a 215+ no reason why you shouldn't match somewhere.



You are in for a ride buddy, 4 of them were citizens. Just your usual folks trying to match in IM, FM, and Psych.


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## shoaib ali (Oct 31, 2009)

nadeem its very difficult to do so dear!


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## ahmed nadeem (Aug 19, 2009)

You mean me? Are you talking about getting into surgery?


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## Sam212 (Apr 3, 2006)

ahmed nadeem said:


> u mean me? r u talking about getting into surgery?


 
Are you a true FMG or a US IMG? Gen Surg is not that competitive and is attainable, will require 230+ and some research to go along with that. Forget about the surgical subspecialties, no chance


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## MastahRiz (Jan 26, 2006)

Realistically I'd have to agree with you.

There is a very small number of FMG's who do match into surgical specialties every year and 1 or 2 of them do happen to be from Pakistani medical schools, although, I guess not every year.

A Pakistani FMG matched into orthopedics about 3 years ago and another one into ophthalmology about 5 years ago. I'm not sure about other statistics, but as you can see, it's extremely slim pickings. It would definitely be a better idea to focus on something more IMG friendly.


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## Sam212 (Apr 3, 2006)

Those FMGs are anamolies and probably extremely outstanding. I think Cal underestimates the competitive nature of some fields. As a US student, I can safely say that if you score less than a 225 and/or are not in top 25% of your class, even with research, matching into a field like Ortho will be an uphill battle. Coming from the outside, you better be a superstar if you expect to match in to Ortho or Optho. And I am talking 260+ with 5+ publications and some big whig letters to go along with that. Even then you might only get 5 interviews, whereas, a US grad applying for the same spot will probably be debating between which interviews not to attend. It might not be fair, but it is what it is, and I think you seem to understand it well.


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## MastahRiz (Jan 26, 2006)

^Agreed. That's what I'm used to hearing. I have no idea where this recent trend of IMG's saying they only need 215 to match all over the US came from.


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