# What are the steps I need to take to become a surgeon?



## jennea_romo (Feb 11, 2009)

I am a highschool junior right now. What are the steps I should take in order to become a surgeon? #confused


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## MastahRiz (Jan 26, 2006)

Study like crazy.

Get into a good college.

Pick *any* undergraduate major and do extremely well.

Get into an American medical school.

Contemplate the urge to read anything written in list format.


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## thecalccobra (Jul 3, 2007)

Coming to Pakistan for med school is also not a bad option. You'll get a chance to love Pakistan for what it has to offer, learn about the culture, and experience life as you would never have experienced in the U.S. Not to mention the fact you'll become a doctor for <$80,000 as compared to $250,000 in the U.S. Most importantly, with hard work and great USMLE Step 1 and 2 scores, you can match into surgery.


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## MastahRiz (Jan 26, 2006)

If money is an issue, I think that's the only time that going to med school anywhere outside of the US should be considered. Otherwise, stick it out where you want to practice in the future. If your plan is to be a surgeon in the US, then stay in the US. Getting a great USMLE score is much easier said than done. Foreign grads are expected to get a 99 score on the USMLE.

A 99 score begins at about 235 - 237. Foreign grads with hopes of surgical specialties are really only considered if they hit something like 250. So, it's not just hard work and a great usmle score, it's more like endless amounts of hard work plus an *extraordinary* usmle score.

American medical students are still much more well rounded than almost all foreign grads, and it's not something that should be overlooked unless money is the limiting factor.


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## thecalccobra (Jul 3, 2007)

99 is not a percentile and the 3 digit number is used nowadays. 


Here are the match statistics for Ross class of 2008.


*This is an email from the Clinical Dean regarding 2008 match statistics.*




*SPECIALTY*​*AvgBSciGPA​**AvgUSMLE-1​**AvgUSMLE-2​* 

Anesthesiology​3.50​223.6​232.9​Emergency Medicine​3.40​208.8​217.3​Family Medicine​2.77​197.3​199.0​General Surgery​3.29​220.4​222.0​Internal Medicine​3.06​209.6​212.3​Medicine-Emergency Med​4.00​240.0​266.0​Medicine-Pediatrics​2.60​201.5​213.3​Medicine-Preliminary​3.24​212.7​215.0​Medicine-Primary​3.67​213.0​211.3​Medicine-Psychiatry​
213.0​241.0​Med-Prelim/Neurology​3.00​216.0​200.0​Neurology​2.00​202.0​184.0​Obstetrics-Gynecology​3.00​204.2​209.0​Orthopaedic Surgery​4.00​238.0​249.5​Pathology​3.50​216.0​227.0​Pediatrics​3.00​203.3​205.1​Phys Medicine & Rehab​3.25​203.5​214.5​Psychiatry​2.94​203.7​205.9​Radiology-Diagnostic​3.00​248.0​246.0​Surgery-Preliminary​3.12​209.8​210.6​Transitional​3.80​230.0​233.0​Vascular Surgery​
268.0​272.0​​ 

As can be seen, the average Step 1 score for matched applicants from Ross (whose grads are considered 'FMG's) was 220 for General Surgery so you don't need a 250 to be 'considered'.


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## MastahRiz (Jan 26, 2006)

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say, that the three digit score is much more important than the 99 score, but most FMG's will tell you that a 99 is good enough (and it's not).

Are you seriously comparing Ross to Pakistani medical schools?

The first step down from an American medical school is Ross and the other caribbean medical school St. George's. (Pakistani med schools are about another 50 steps down.) These two medical schools are more established in the US than any other FMG program because of two reasons-- first of all, they require an undergraduate degree from a 4 year university or college. Pakistani medical schools do not. Pakistani medical colleges accept students straight out of high school at age 18 and graduate people as young as 23. Secondly, Ross and St. George's both have rotation schedules for their students set up in the US well before graduation for almost an entire year, or maybe more. Anyone from Ross probably has a hundred LOR's + research experience (huge advantage) while most Pakistani grads will have 1 LOR from their dean, and if they're lucky, one from some other pakistani doctor.

Of course FMG's do match into surgery, but if you're going to use statistics to backup your argument, find the number of Pakistani medical school graduates in 2008 who matched in general surgery. Ross is in no way a comparison to what FMGs from Pakistan will go through. Ross students take the USMLE right after their second year in med school just like American students, and are expected to get scores like the ones you posted above. Pakistani graduates take 6 months off of doing nothing but studying for the USMLE (the program directors know this) and if you still don't break at least a 235, why would you even show up for the interview?

I guarantee you that the average Pakistani medical grad with a score of 220 will have an extremely hard time matching into anything other than family practice.


BTW, is Jennea_romo even Pakistani?


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## jennea_romo (Feb 11, 2009)

Hi MastahRiz,
No I am not Pakistani, I live in America also..
So how many years will I be in a College, and then how many years in medical school? And after medical school do I do residency for how long? Or is that part of the medical school program?


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## thecalccobra (Jul 3, 2007)

Current Students in the Integrated General Surgery Residency Program <------ 3 first year's at this program (pretty good program) from Dow and AKU as compared to 1 from Ross

http://www.viahealth.org/body_rochester.cfm?id=384 <---- 6 at this program! 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Aga_Khan_University_people 

I'll do an extensive search some other time but it's hard to find a lot of FMG's (including Ross and SGU) in surgery just by searching on Google because a lot of small, community, rural programs don't show up. 

http://www.rossu.edu/medical-school/files/2008ResidencyList.pdf 
Check out all those Rads and Surgery matches. Even an extensive google search will not get you all those. Knowing the particular hospital/program really helps. I guess Pakistani med schools do not like to boast their residency placements #laugh

Current Students in the Integrated General Surgery Residency Program <------ 3 first year's at this program (pretty good program) from Dow and AKU as compared to 1 from Ross

Current Residents <---- 6 at this program! 

List of Aga Khan University people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 

I'll do an extensive search some other time but it's hard to find a lot of FMG's (including Ross and SGU) in surgery just by searching on Google because a lot of small, community, rural programs don't show up. 

http://www.rossu.edu/medical-school/files/2008ResidencyList.pdf 
Check out all those Rads and Surgery matches. Even an extensive google search will not get you all those. Knowing the particular hospital/program really helps. I guess Pakistani med schools do not like to boast their residency placements #laugh


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## MastahRiz (Jan 26, 2006)

That's definitely some impressive stuff. I've always been told by US doctors that I need to singularly be the best out of the entire pool of foreign grads if I want to match to a field or program of my choice. That has always scared me. Especially when I told one ophthalmologist that I'm confident that I'd hit 235, he just cut me off and said anyone can get that score, how are you gonna compensate for the fact that you went to a foreign school? That's where I get most of my "250 or bust idea."

I know there are foreign grads out there but I always feel like I'm going to have an insane time trying to match.

Those links are excellent, I'm glad they're here on our forum now. I'm still curious as to what the USMLE scores were for those guys though. I'll really be surprised if there are some 220's or lower. Shifa (my med school) only has about 3 practicing graduates in the US and they were all about 220 or so, were US citizens, interviews really well, and matched in internal medicine. There might be another one somewhere, don't know his 3 digit score, but, he's in family practice.

Again, awesome links. Also good to know which programs are foreign friendly. I know some programs won't even look at your application unless you're from Yale, Stanford, Harvard or UCSF.


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## jennea_romo (Feb 11, 2009)

What would the chances be of getting into a residency at a Children's Hospital?

Also, can you spend all your residency years at one hospital? Or do you have to rotate?


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## thecalccobra (Jul 3, 2007)

Here are some more that I found: 


University of Texas Houston Internal Medicine Residency Program Roster
<------ 1 opthalmology PGY-3 from Aga Khan

Department of Neurosurgery
<------ 2/9 neurosurgery-one of the toughest fields- residents are from Aga Khan

2007 - 2008 Residents; University of Louisville
<------ 1 opthalmology resident from Aga Khan 

Department of Surgery - Current Residents
<------ 2 general surgery residents from Aga Khan....pretty impressive given it's Brown

Temple University Department of Orthopaedic Surgery & Sports Medicine - Residency Program - Current Residents & Alumni
<----- 1 Dowite PGY-4 in orthopaedic surgery- extremely tough to match into.


To all the naysers out there who say as Pakistani medical graduates, or FMG's, you will not match into tough fields like neurosurg, anesthesia, rads, optho, it can be done- but with a lot of hard work.

Oh, and People tend to put General Surgery on a pedestal and make it seem like it's the hardest field to match into: it's not. The hours are very bad, you work like a dog, and the pay isn't that great either. Therefore, as a Pakistani medical graduate, if you rock the boards and do well overall, you will have a good chance of matching into it or any other field for that matter.


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## WANABEE (Jul 18, 2008)

thecalccobra I am really impressed by the material you have shown up with. And you have also boosted my confidence as a Pakistani medical student. Thanks


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## MastahRiz (Jan 26, 2006)

jennea_romo said:


> What would the chances be of getting into a residency at a Children's Hospital?
> 
> Also, can you spend all your residency years at one hospital? Or do you have to rotate?


I'm not sure about the children's hospital part, but usually you won't spend all of your residency years at the same hospital. Most of the time you'll rotate between a couple that are in the same area.



thecalccobra said:


> To all the naysers out there who say as Pakistani medical graduates, or FMG's, you will not match into tough fields like neurosurg, anesthesia, rads, optho, *it can be done- but with a lot of hard work*.
> 
> Oh, and People tend to put General Surgery on a pedestal and make it seem like it's the hardest field to match into: it's not. The hours are very bad, you work like a dog, and the pay isn't that great either. Therefore, as a Pakistani medical graduate, *if you rock the boards* and do well overall, you will have a good chance of matching into it or any other field for that matter.


 that's exactly what I was saying... We should still try and come up with some USMLE scores of these guys from the links. I'll feel a huge weight off of my shoulders if there are some right around 220 or even 230.


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## Sam212 (Apr 3, 2006)

That Ortho guy from Dow is certainly an accomplishment. Average for US grads is around 240 for ortho, this guy must have gotten 265+. If you can get that type of a score, I say you should get whatever you want, but even a 265+ doesn't guarantee anything. Let me put a more personal twist on this, a guy from DOW that I know scored a 248 and applied radiology and IM as a back up. Got a total of 2 interviews for Rads, ended up matching at a respectable IM program in TN. So there's more to it than just working hard, you also need to make connections along the way, trust me, you don't get spots like these just by scoring very high USMLE (although you should, just like US grads)


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## MastahRiz (Jan 26, 2006)

My point exactly.


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## saadq_13 (Jun 19, 2007)

Excellent information really. Thanks thecalccobra and MastahRiz. Getting into the desired specialty in US is certainly no easy job. Competition is fierce. Can you guys post some stats about Australia? What are the odds that you'll get into the field you want over there?


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## Sam212 (Apr 3, 2006)

And there's no way that Ross matched students in EM with an average score of 208, No F'ing way. EM average during last match was around 222, and people at my school who matched EM all had above 220's, and yes we are a US med school. EM is way more competitive than 208.


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## MastahRiz (Jan 26, 2006)

Yeah, I'm inclined to agree with you. The links that are posted above simply show the placement of IMG's in US hospitals, but doesn't provide any information to their USMLE scores.

Ross is still a bit of an exception when it comes to foreign med schools, so I'd still believe that before I believe that an IMG from Pakistan would get in with the same score. But like you said, 220+ is what I'd expect to hear as well.


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